The American Bar Association claims, “There is probably less agreement, more misinformation, and less understanding of the right to keep and bear arms than any other current controversial constitutional issue.” Our very campus experienced a dustup last March when the many-titled Nick Moyes, Club President/Chair/Captain of the UVU College Republicans, was, as reported by the “Deseret News” on March 9, told that “he would need written permission from campus police to openly carry a gun on campus and that such permission had never been granted.” Moyes agreed to conceal his handgun, a Sig Sauer P226 9mm; probably out of shame that it wasn’t a Glock, but that’s just this writer’s brand preference.
I once heard an unsubstantiated anecdote that Ted Nugent carries around a laminated copy of the Bill of Rights in his pocket and refers to it as his “gun license.” However, if the American Bar Association’s acknowledgment of the massive ambiguities regarding such an important issue are as accurate as their authority and expertise would lead the American people to believe, what should we do?
Last week, the UVU College Republicans sponsored a class on concealed carry permits for the slightly-below-average cost of $45. A concealed carry permit is something that I personally have wanted for some time, and not necessarily in order to actually carry a firearm with me. A lifelong interest in firearms along with an almost habitual dedication to the films of Clint Eastwood has given me a fascination with guns in general, and any concealed carry permit class worth its salt is largely based in safety and education regarding guns and their use. As a staunch proponent of knowledge in general, I considered signing up for the College Republican’s class.
But I don’t want them to have my money, even if it’s only the cost of dinner for two at a moderately good steakhouse.
In the “Deseret News” article, Moyes claims that he is “not an activist,” yet on March 5, he posted a lengthy diatribe of his encounter with law enforcement on www.UtahConcealedCarry.com, a Web site that describes itself as “Utah Premier Gun Talk Forum.”
In his post, titled “UVU cops detained me for OCing [open carrying] on campus,” Moyes, who posts under the username “MajorNickmo,” wrote that the police officer that initially spoke to him was “…BEHAVING LIKE HE [was] ON THE VERGE OF TAZING ME!” Moyes’ capitalization remains unchanged.
This is not a group of folks with which I care to be associated. I have known former Boy Scout leaders, religious authorities, family members, neighbors, and countless supporters of firearm rights that carry quietly and legally, not making a fuss over what they believe to be a personal political issue. They are trained, well-versed in safety and purpose, and don’t let a hip-held sidearm declare to the world that they’re a Big Tough Man.
So I’m going to get my concealed carry permit at Rangemasters in Springville, where, for $29.99, you receive your training, passport photos, range instruction, and safety/reference letters, all while in the educating hands of professionals. Sounds like a better deal to me.
I disagree Nick has a legitimate complaint and Open Carry is legal here in Utah the college has no right to regulate this,
Well, the article sounds more like a personal attack. In summary, you can have a permit to carry concealed OR carry open (at almost all the same places as police).
Your personal political preference, way of life, internet forum participation (which possibly would help to rid some of your predijuce) or choice of training should not be associated with the topic.
More a diatribe than an educated opinion.
This has as much, if not more, to do with protecting your rights as it does about carrying a gun.
Nick did not break any laws, so why would the police feel that they needed to create a situation from nothing? Are the police not supposed to be Law Enforcement Officers? If that were true, and since Nick was well within the law to carry his gun, the police should have done the complete opposite of what they did.
Andy’s opinion is that you should keep your gun hidden. I respect that opinion. I have my carry permit. I will more than likely continue to conceal my gun when I carry it, but I applaud Nick for standing up for his rights, and by doing so, help to protect the rights of every other citizen of this state.
That was one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read in my life. The article jumped all over the place, and left me somewhat confused as to your point of writing it in the first place. Your article was a cheap excuse for taking personal cheap shots at Nick Moyes, and you totally contradict yourself in the process. You claim to side with the people who, ” carry quietly and legally, not making a fuss over what they believe to be a personal political issue.”
If you side with them, why would you even write an article on the subject? Learn how to write clear and concise points before you take up journalism
Good article Andy! I myself am a fan of Glock and I would not put it past Nick to have bought a Sig to feel more like Jack Bauer. I am glad that someone finally wrote an opinion on Nicks’ little stunt. Nick has no respect for the UVU Police and his You Tube videos clearly show that. In fact last week he had a booth where he and his fellow republicans were passing out buttons that read,”Educate a Cop on gun laws.” Who is this guy who places himself above the law? I think the UVU College Republicans should have him removed from his position to save any further embarrassment from Nick.
Xavier you truly are uneducated about Utah law. You really think Nick intended for this to happen the way it did.
I applaud nick for his efforts and educating others based on Utah law. He did nothing wrong protected his rights. Why are you attacking this person when he did not break the law.
Nick is truly a person of moral character and integrity. He is standing up for what he believes in.
You say your a fan of Glocks but does this mean anything. I to am a fan of the Glock but more then that a fan of my right to carry my firearm any way I see fit. I obey Utah law and have a clean criminal record.
Xavier you truly are uneducated and biased about a subject you know nothing about based on your comment. Please reconsider the fact Nick did nothing illegal and the stunt you refer to please explain.
Actually I am very educated about gun laws and am pro second amendment and have attended more concealed weapons classes to keep myself educated and informed on Utah gun laws. You must have missed a sentence in the article because my preference to Glocks is an agreement with the pistol brand that the author of the article likes. I understand that Utah is an open carry state but,Nick should carry concealed while he is on university grounds.
Sure Nick was protecting his rights but do his rights trump the feelings of others who see his gun and loose their sense of safety and security on campus? Are the police supposed to sit back and not respond when they receive multiple calls about a person with a gun on campus? Does the way he interacted with the police and the snide little pop up comments on his You Tube video represent the way that the president of the college republicans should…
Like I mentioned before, this incident has as much to do with rights as it does with guns. Nick chose to excercise his 2nd Amendment rights by carrying his gun and he chose to excercise his 1st Amendment rights by wearing it openly. He did not seem to be shouting “FIRE” and demanding that everyone acknowledge that he was armed. He was going about his normal daily routine and was not behaving in a threatening way.
>>”Sure Nick was protecting his rights but do his rights trump the feelings of others who see his gun and loose their sense of safety and security on campus?”
So if I walk into a dark ally and see a bunch of young guys who look like they just stepped out of a gangster rap video, can I expect the cops to come clear them out because I loose my sense of safety? No. They have every right to be there and they are free to dress however they choose.
Xavier,
You say that Nick is the one placing himself above the law? Wow, I thought you said you were “educated” on gun laws? It’s UVU and the UVU campus police that are placing themselves above the law.
What part of statute 52-5a-102 don’t you understand?
(5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
Nick Moyes was absolutely within his rights to OC on campus, and the campus police and UVU were in CLEAR violation of the law by writing their own policy governing firearms in a PUBLIC school.
With all due respect, before you say you are “educated” on gun laws, you might want to read them
FACT: Only the Utah State Legislature has the authority to delegate the creation of prohibitions on firearms.
FACT: That USL has not given Utah public universities that right.
THEREFORE:
It is well within any concealed firearms permit holder to openly carry on any Utah public university campus.
It is a sign of admission by the schools that the strongest action they can take is to charge you with ‘Disruption of School Activities’
This law is intended for unruly actions in the high school arena – such ans the now infamous bouncy ball incident that occurred at Provo High School. It is intended to prevent anhyone from rushing a field after a win, or intentionally, with malice or mischief, causing any unscheduled interruption of any school activity, assembly, class, game or meeting.
To attempt to stretch this law to include lawful carry of a firearm merely shows the level of the…
Xavier Gutierrez, yes rights trump the feelings. Otherwise people could say something stupid like Muslims make me nervous so you shouldn’t be allowed to to teach the religion of Islam. If the police want to respond to calls that is up to them. They should not be enforcing their opinions, but rather the law. Nick should be applauded for standing up for his rights.
Good for Nick, I Conceal Carry every day I’m on campus and everywhere I go about in my life. People who believe that someone should HAVE to conceal are obviously confused about the nature of the laws here in UT.
People who think that people should stop exercising their rights because someone may be “frightened” or LOSE (please please please not ‘loose’ its ‘lose’ I thought we were college students?) their sense of safety should take a step back and look at the stupidity of that statement. It opens up precedent to all sorts of stupid behavior, such as banning clowns because I lose my sense of safety around them.
The writer of this article is A) entirely out of bounds as a journalist. (You aren’t supposed to take pot shots at people, you’re supposed to be fair and balanced and provide facts not your opinion) and B) sounds like he is very under-educated about the laws in…
…regards to this matter.4
“Sure Nick was protecting his rights but do his rights trump the feelings of others who see his gun and loose their sense of safety and security on campus?” — The answer is YES his rights trump those people. The constitution is in place to protect the minority (in this instance Nick and gun owner who want to OC) from infringement of the majority. As well as providing avenues in which the majority could make a change if they wanted, which they haven’t so you can’t just ignore the rule of law.
“Actually I am very educated about gun laws and am pro second amendment and have attended more concealed weapons classes to keep myself educated and informed on Utah gun laws.” — Keep going, you obviously didn’t learn enough.
“Nick has no respect for the UVU Police and his You Tube videos clearly show that.” — Just like police officer have cameras on…
…their dashboards to capture events when they pull someone over, Nick was right to have a video of the incident to refer to if asked about anything.
Also as an after-thought I would encourage the author of this article to ask the people at Rangemasters to tell him whether or not he thinks that Nick was in the right. My assumption would be he’ll find out he will be dealing with people with the same beliefs as Nick and the same conviction of those beliefs.
All of your statements prove to me that Nick does place himself above the law and others just because he carries a gun. I have a concealed weapons permit just like Nick and I also carry a gun but I do not show it off on campus like Nick. I am also sure that the police decided that since they received and overwhelming amount of phone calls from worried students about Nick and his gun they decided to side with the worried callers instead of take the side of one person making a political statement. It was not an easy choice for them and Nick decided to put a political spin on it by taking a cheap shot at the police.
As for Veyec, why would you walk down a dark alley when it is filled with people who might hurt you and who you are intimidated by?
From what I understand, it was one person who called in on Nick and asked if it was legal to carry openly. Hardly overwhelming.
>>”As for Veyec, why would you walk down a dark alley when it is filled with people who might hurt you and who you are intimidated by?”
I am not easily intimidated. And sometimes you have to venture out of your comfort zone. Some of the best experiences in life are where you least expect to find them.
>>”All of your statements prove to me that Nick does place himself above the law and others just because he carries a gun.”
How can you say that, when everything he has done has been supported BY THE LAW? I just don’t get your argument. It is beyond logic.
We all need to remember that opinions are like armpits. Everybody has more than one and sometimes they stink.
The facts are that Nick was acting well within the law (as backed up by BCI, the people that administer the permits) and was not provoking any icidents. He has a history of openly carrying his gun on campus. That day, someone called the police to ask if it was legal, which it is, and that is how it all started.
Some people who have CFP’s choose to conceal, some choose tho openly carry. We may or may not like the others position, but we should respect it.
A friend of mine works dispatch at the UVU police station. He told me there were multiple not just one. Did Nick tell you there was just one?
>>”A friend of mine works dispatch at the UVU police station. He told me there were multiple not just one. Did Nick tell you there was just one?”
Is it common place to discuss such events outside of the department? Even so, it does not change the fact that Nick was not a threat and well within the law and his rights.
Hitler had a feeling that the Jews were a threat.
Out of sight, out of mind?
I invite you and any others that may read this to venture over to http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com where we all can continue this discussion. We seem to be venturing away from the original topic, which is Andy’s opinion on the event.
@Scott E:
“LOSE (please please please not ‘loose’ its ‘lose’ I thought we were college students?)”
please please please not ‘its’, it’s ‘IT’S’. I thought you were a college student.
Good work Andy.
Veyec, you’ve officially Godwin’d.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Hitler also drank water and breathed air. Better stop doing those, too.
So intentionally walking down a dark ally way lined with people who want to hurt you is called stepping out of your comfort zone? Sounds more like lack of common sense or stupidity to me. You logic does not make sense.
@xavier gutierrez
Now you are making straw man arguments about things Veyec said that are irrelevant to the actual issue at hand, and ignoring his actual point. Seems you know you’ve got no ground to stand on and are just trying to look for other ways to discredit his (correct) statements. Very sophomoric of you. I took my CFP class just a few days ago from an instructor out of Logan who has been teaching for 25 years, and hes been a police officer for that long as well. He discourages open-carry ONLY because you MAY invite trouble, justified or not, that you might not want want to deal with (he cites examples of cops that have been killed with their own gun, but I can’t find examples of open-carriers being shot with their own gun in public); but he supports it as a right, especially if you have a CFP. Words right from an 25-year veteran LEO’s mouth. I believe his word trumps…
…anything you’ve got to say on the law. His name is Dex Taylor. cfpofutah.com. You can even call him and verify if you want. He’s definitely more experienced than these kegger cops. I respect most cops, I really do, they have a tough job, but some cops are just an embarrassment to the badge, and plenty of cops will readily admit to that. The cops in the video are an example of the kind that I am glad are relegated to campus duty and out aren’t harassing open-carriers on the street with their ignorance of gun law. Although in that scenario they wouldn’t be able to threaten expulsion or other academic discipline. What kind of jerk would threaten that when Nick wasn’t even doing anything illegal? It’s well known that state law overrides campus policy, it’s just not come in writing from a judge yet so administrators don’t feel the pressure to comply. THEY are the ones that…
… THEY are the ones that consider themselves above the law, CLEARLY.
Nothing in my argument is straw man. It is simple common sense and they are relevant to the issue at hand. I have tons of ground to stand on. From what I have read you obviously have not read the conversations going on in here.
@Xavier Gutierrez From what Ive read on the site your biggest problem is that he allowed his gun to be seen. Did you listen to the video of the incident. The cop says there was a call from a person asking if it was legal and he ran right over. There wasn’t a complaint mentioned by the cop. If there were multiple calls would he have mentioned the one person who did not complain?
You have stated you have a ccw but you would not open carry on the campus. But that is what you choose to do. This gentlemen wishes for others to know they have the right to open carry with a ccw. What is wrong with it if its completely legal?
What is wrong with trying to educate on a campus of higher learning?
Or are you biased because of your friend in the departments dispatch and just don’t care about a persons constitutional rights under the state of Utah?